Understanding and Supporting Sticky Student Behaviors With Sara Cottrill-Carlo From The Responsive Counselor

Sara
Today, I get to introduce you to one of my favorite humans and my dear friend, Sara Cottrill-Carlo. She is a veteran school counselor, and she’s also the founder of The Responsive Counselor. She serves counselors and educators all across the globe with her downloadable resources and her professional development training that really support children’s wellness and makes the job of those who support them easier and better.

Sara
And today on the podcast, she is talking all about how we can better understand and support sticky student behaviors. She has a variety of proactive intervention strategies that you can really put in place to help prevent student behaviors from happening.

Sara
And I learned a lot from this conversation. And I know that there are strategies that she’s going to share that will really empower you to better support your students as you finish out this year. So let’s go ahead and jump into this conversation.

Sara
Hi, Sara, thanks so much for joining me today. I’m so excited to have you on the show.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Hello, fellow h-less, Sara, I am still very, very glad to be here talking with you.

Sara
And yes, we both spell her name correctly. No offense to any Sara’s that spell it with the H, but I always love having a friend with a similar name.

Sara
One, I’m so grateful for your friendship in real life. But I’m very grateful for your friendship in the professional world because you very much are an expert. I feel like in human behavior and student behavior and just understanding how our brains work. And I know a lot of teachers in my membership and in my audience, especially this time of year have been asking questions about student behavior.

Sara
You know, student behavior is different than it was pre COVID. Things that may be used to work aren’t working the same way. And so I’m very excited that we get to have a conversation today about how we can best support students and their behavior and really supporting teachers so they can support their students.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Yeah, absolutely. And I think even even pre COVID spring with the big kids, as I call them always gets to be a little hairy, scary, right? Like some of them, it is the hormones, some of them, it’s because they know the end is coming. It’s a lot that kind of hits all at once testing season. It’s sort of the perfect storm.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Yeah, there’s a there’s a lot that goes on. And I know you’ve got some really specific things that teachers can try to help with that. Before we get into kind of some of those specific interventions. I would love to sort of know, just, you know, from your perspective, what are some mistakes that schools make when they are trying to support students with behavior issues?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Yeah, absolutely. And when I’m talking about these mistakes, I’m talking about ones that I personally have made as somebody with a master’s degree and a decade of experience in the field, and that behavior analysts make and admin certainly make. So if you’re listening to this, and you’re thinking, Oh, that was me, you are certainly not alone.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And because like you said, Sara, it has gotten harder. It’s really, really hard. The stakes also sometimes feel harder as well. And honestly, most teachers were not prepared for what they face in the classrooms in their educator programs. And you know teachers want to teach. And these behaviors are getting in the way of the really beautiful learning and instruction that teachers want to do. And so I just want to say it’s hard. I know that it’s really, really, it’s really hard.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
The biggest mistake that I personally made, and that I see happen all the time, is people who use just one sort of lens or perspective or viewpoint, when looking at students behavior. Kind of this idea, like everything is about regulation or connection. Everything is about these Applied Behavior Analysis principles.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
I think we really do our students disservice when we think that everyone with a behavior issue needs a sticker chart, or everyone or the behavior issue just needs a mentor. Or if we could just give them some calming tools, everything will be fine. Because students are unique humans, just like we grownups are and although there are certainly some psychological or behavioral principles that apply to most of us behavior intervention is not one size fits all.

Sara
Yeah, and I hear you say that I’m like, oh, yeah, I was good. guilty of that as well, you know, I think, to your point where it’s like teachers have such a hard job to do, because not only are they expected to teach, right, a ton of different content, but they’re also expected to be experts with student behavior. And you know, helping students develop relationships and coping skills and all of these things.

Sara
And teacher preparation programs don’t necessarily, I think, adequately prepare teachers for all of the things that they have to do. I definitely think I was guilty, both as a classroom teacher and as a school administrator, because I was an assistant principal for a while of wanting to do the one size fits all for right, here’s the behavior chart, or here’s the timeout, what are the common corner.

Sara
I know, you’ve mentioned this idea that we don’t, we tend to want to look through just a singular lens for student behavior. So what are some lenses that we can use for conceptualizing and intervening in behavior.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
The lens that I think we’re most familiar with, even if we don’t maybe use this language is this idea of what I call competing motivations. And that’s the idea that everyone, grownups kids want to be well, and do well. But that looks different for different people.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Because we have different things that motivate us, that bring us fulfillment, things that are important to us, that is based on previous life experiences, our current environment, and just, you know, who we are deep inside, right. And the problem is that sometimes what motivates us, or what is most reinforcing to us is not what is quote unquote, best, or what is in line with what’s expected of us.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And when that’s the case, when what motivates or fulfills us is different than what we should be doing. than some of us, I’m saying us because it’s not just kids it’s grown ups too, might benefit from an additional reinforcer, a bonus motivator to help us do this right thing.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
So grown up example, I let myself maybe watch a new show that I’m excited about, after I walk my dog, or maybe I buy myself a plant after I’ve made appointments that I’ve been dreading making. And with students, this might look like, maybe they’re more motivated by playing with the toy they brought in their pocket than in doing their work. Or maybe they are more fulfilled by talking to their friend than focusing on the assignment.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And I think that’s okay. I think it’s totally normal that students are motivated by playing or being social versus doing their schoolwork. That’s just developmentally, all right. The problem, though, is that they have not developed this belief or this mindset, yet, of, sometimes I have to do things I don’t want to do, because it’s important or valuable, or will help me in the long term. Or being able to really believe this isn’t fun, but it’s actually not so bad.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And when that’s the case, when you think that a student’s misbehavior is because of these competing motivations, right? They know what to do. They are fully capable of doing what’s expected of them, but they’re not because they’re motivated or fulfilled by something different. That’s when positive reinforcement type of interventions are going to be your best bet.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Yeah. And I feel like you brought up just so many good reminders. I remember when I was in the classroom, having these moments where sometimes I’m like, what we are asking our students to do is, to some degree, I think unrealistic, because we would never ask adults to sit in a desk and be quiet and work or non stop.

Sara
And think about, you know, as an adult, who can, for the most part, regulate myself and make decisions that I know are good for me, there are still times where it’s like, I don’t want to go for the walk, or I don’t I don’t want to take my dogs out. I don’t want to cook dinner like I don’t want to do laundry, all these things that I know I’m supposed to do. I still don’t want to do them, even though like I am an adult who’s developed these skills.

Sara
So I just I love sort of that reminder that it’s like, okay, our students know how they know what’s expected of them, they know how to behave, but they are still struggling with this competing motivation where it’s like they they still want to do the things that are more preferable as opposed to the the right school behavior.

Sara
So I know you said positive intervention obviously is going to work for students in this sort of scenario. What are some other interventions or specific interventions that you recommend teachers give a try?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
What you said is spot on Sara. There are so many skills required to be a successful student, socially, academically, and behaviorally. And although with a previous lens, we’re saying, hey, look, a lot of our kids they they know how to do what is expected of them, they can do it.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Some kids can’t. Some kids have not yet fully developed all of these needed skills to be successful as a student. Things like sustaining attention, getting started on work, being self aware, compromising, asking for help, being a flexible thinker, using a social filter, persevering through challenges staying organized all have that and the list goes on and on, right? Some kids haven’t developed those skills just yet. And we can call them lagging skills.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
So lagging skills is another lens that we might use. When we’re considering a student’s misbehavior or their behavior struggles, we might ask ourselves, what skills are required for them to meet these expectations that they’re struggling with? And is it possible that they haven’t mastered those skills yet, but they’re not there.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And when that’s the case, then there’s sort of two different kinds of strategies we might use for our interventions. And the first is super clear cut explicit skill instruction, just like we do with academics, we can do with these more squishy skills.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And then the second is around self awareness, because I found and I imagine that you see this in your classrooms that oftentimes, you know, a kiddo learns and understands a skill somewhat quickly. But they fail to recognize in the moment, what they’re doing, whether that behavior was following expectations, how it impacts themselves, and how it impacts others, something kind of gets lost in all of those parts for them.

Sara
When you are listing off all of those things like sustained attention compromising using a social filter, staying organized, I was like, Oh, wow, like, people have to learn a lot of things. And I’m just curious, if anything, it takes a lot to be like a functioning member of society. Yeah.

Sara
So I know you said that, like those skills, sometimes we need to explicitly teach them to our students. How do students in general like develop those? Like what is sort of the process to naturally develop those and I don’t even know if you have like a maybe this is beyond your, like, understanding, but even is there like an expectation, right, like by third grade, they should be able to have a social filter or whatever, like, you know, I’m saying like, how, what’s the process that we should expect for students to develop these skills?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Yeah, definitely. And I actually, for anyone who is ever curious about what some of those social, emotional behavioral milestones are, for school aged kids, there’s a book called The Yard Sticks. It’s published by Responsive Classroom, which is a company I really admire, I think they do great work in their trainings.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And that kind of breaks down by developmental level, what what we would expect and also what we maybe can’t expect. But in terms of how it develops, I think it develops socially, right? So much of our learning with social emotional behavioral skills, occurs in the context of social connection and social situations.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
So, for example, you know, a student might be explicitly taught about raising their hand that’s good and great, but also for a kindergartener, the other way that they’re learning about this is they’re noticing what happens when their peers raise their hand. They get called on, they often get praise. They also notice what happens when their classmates don’t raise their hand, right, and they’re just blurting things out, they get reprimanded, their ideas don’t appear to be valued as much.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And that same sort of scenario can apply to lots and lots of different skills is happening through this kind of repeated practice, especially to social things. And where sometimes I think we’re having more struggles is because our students are not in those situations as much as they once were before. Right.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
I think, you know, maybe they’re not on as many sports teams or doing as many extracurriculars. They’re not having playdates after school, recess time is shorter. So some of these more natural situations where kiddos are developing these skills, they’re not having that opportunity. So we might be seeing some more lagging skills because of that.

Sara
Yeah, and so much of what you said, I think is so helpful. One, you know, when you were talking about like the social part of social emotional learning, and I was like, Oh, wait, that the social part is like, that is the s.

Sara
And yeah, and I think so often, I know, at least when I was in the classroom, we put so much emphasis on the emotional side of things, right? Like, let’s teach empathy. Let’s teach responsibility. Let’s teach reflectiveness. But you know, the fact that you even just listed out like, okay, like raising your hand, like, that’s sort of like a social skill, we forget that we need to explicitly teach those skills to our students, as well.

Sara
And I think, you know, the fact that so many of these skills are learned in social studies, and really, especially thinking about our students the last four years, I feel like interacting with people in general just looks different than it did before the pandemic. So to some degree, it totally makes sense that our students are lagging in these areas.

Sara
So I know you talked about, you know, the idea of providing positive reinforcement and then explicitly teaching some of these lagging skills. What else can teachers do if they’re noticing some behavior issues?

Sara
Yeah, there’s one more lens that was probably the newest one for me, even as a counselor, which is wild because it’s so very much in line with my background and training and that is about unmet needs.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Oftentimes, our students misbehave. They’re not meeting our expectations, because they have have essential needs that aren’t being met. Right? As humans, we all have needs. And we can label them kind of differently.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
But they boil down to five biggies. One, to be physically and emotionally safe; two, to be physically and emotionally regulated. Three, to be connected to and valued by others; four to experience fun humor, playfulness, and learning; five, to have control over our lives and know that we are capable beings.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
We all have these needs adults and kids alike, right? And I think we can see in both kids and adults that when these needs aren’t being met, our behavior changes. Often because we’re trying to get those needs met in ways that are unhelpful or sometimes even harmful.

Sara
Yeah, that’s again, like when you were listening that off, I’m like, oh, yeah, like that. And again, thinking about as an adult, I can think of some of those things. I was like, Okay, I don’t have all of these boxes that I can check right now. And thinking how I respond to that. But again, when a kid is either not feeling physically or emotionally safe, or regulated or connected and valued, like, that’s a much harder thing for them to process, I think, then an adult is.

Sara
Absolutely. And because kids have genuinely less autonomy and less experience, they also are less equipped to voice their needs to know that they have them to be able to say, hey, I have this unmet need, right? Like that’s, that’s on us.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And where this lens comes into play, I think is when we have students who have more kind of pervasive misbehavior over a range of settings, right? It’s not, it’s not just that they’re blurter, it’s that they’re having struggles in multiple subjects or classes or arenas. And at like a fairly kind of decent level.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
The three needs the three unmet needs that I think we see the most in the classroom are around attention and connection. A lot of our students, maybe their unmet need there is because they are not getting as much attention and connection outside of school, as others are getting.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
But I would also argue that some kids just have a greater need for that than others, they just need more than your average bear, you know. And when that happens, when that is the unmet need, that’s when we’re maybe seeing things like meltdowns, or attitude or shutdown or talking back when the teacher is giving attention to someone else.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Those kids that are constantly trying to make other people laugh, students where even after you’ve reprimanded them, the behavior continues, or maybe even increases, or sometimes maybe not as much with your with, you know, fourth and fifth graders, but you still see some of this in third, kiddos who seem almost uncomfortable when they’re alone, they just kind of always wants to be with you, or classmate, those are some clues that they maybe have an unmet need around attention and connection.

Sara
And so I mean, my sort of gut reaction is, so you just need to give these kids more attention and connection or is there like Is it as simple as filling their need, and then the issue, the behavior issues disappear?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
It is it’s getting their needs met, and finding sometimes creative ways to get that need met. You know, it could be as simple as maybe their attention and connection comes in the realm of when they are called on right, the kiddos who always constantly need to be called on. And so maybe in those situations, you can’t call on them every time that maybe they have a whiteboard, and they’re writing down their answer on a whiteboard, and they’re getting the opportunity to show it to you and you have a nonverbal signal where you’re connecting with them, right?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Maybe it could be if a student is, you know, on the more touchy feely side, then maybe you know, that every 15 minutes, you need to connect with that kiddo in some way. It could be a hand on the shoulder, it could be a high five, it could be an elbow bump, but that that will help to meet their need.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Some of these students who need more attention and connection do benefit from having a mentor in the building. I’ve also had some students before where their need for attention and connection was around peers and not grownups. I think that’s a little bit trickier.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
One thing that we’ve done before is had kind of like a share time. And some students were able to using joke books from the school library. So they were vetted for appropriateness, they have the opportunity to share joke with the class during morning meeting, right? So, so many teachers are doing beautiful work of community circles, morning meetings, community gatherings, whatever you want to call them.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
That can be this like little way to give a student who has an extra need for peer connection, a moment to get their cup filled, right, give them an opportunity to share a positive news story to share inappropriate joke, things like that. Those are just kind of small ways to start to get that need met. And we’ll talk more later about a couple other kind of bigger interventions that I think can help with that.

Sara
Yeah, and I think like all of those things that you mentioned, they don’t take that much time, right? Like walking around and putting the hand on the shoulder or letting the student you know, have a whiteboard to respond. But it’s like those small little things, if we can intentionally do that they can have such a huge difference, I think not only for that student, but obviously the overall just like culture of the classroom.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Absolutely. And in terms of time, what I know that I have to remind myself of, and lots of conversations that I got to have with the incredible teachers I worked with is that we’re going to spend the time no matter what, right? If a student is struggling with their behavior, we’re using up and spend enough time redirecting them having to pause our instruction, having conversations in the hallway, all of that we’re already spending that time, how can we spend that time proactively instead of reactively?

Sara
That is such a good, just like mindset shift, like the time is gonna get spent, we might as well be proactive with it compared to being reactive.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Yeah. Another big unmet need is in the realm of regulation.

Sara
And can you explain what regulation is, I feel like I hear that term a lot, and like the counselor world, but just so my teacher, for sure, understand what is regulation?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
I would love to so I once found a definition that said that when we are regulated, we are at the right, energy level, and right mental level to do our jobs. Right. So oftentimes, that means like calm, alert, and ready to learn. That’s an expression that I have some teachers that have used before.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
We’re not overly excited, unless we’re out at recess, in which case it’s appropriate, right, but we haven’t enough energy in a umpf to pay attention and focus, we’re alert, and we’re ready, right. So an adult ready to do our job looks a little different than for kids, but it’s to learn calm, alert, and ready to learn what I think about it, and that’s both physically and emotionally, right.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
So if I’m really hot, if I’m really hungry, if my stomach hurts, I’m dysregulated. And it’s going to be harder for me to do my job or to learn just as much as if I am worried, angry, or sad. And emotionally, it’s going to get in the way of me being able to learn.

Sara
I love that phrase, calm, alert, ready to learn. I’m like, I can even use that on myself calm, alert, ready to work. But I think even is sharing something like that with your students brings about an awareness. Right, right, like a self awareness like, am I calm? Am I alert? Am I ready to learn? Which I feel like self awareness, I’m sure has so much to do with like, just all of these behavior challenges that we’ve been talking about?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Absolutely, especially with upper elementary students, because you start to get into where not only is regulation an issue, but you want them to be able to self regulate, right. As the grown up in the room, you’re doing a lot of co-regulating, right when, when you are choosing to keep your voice level and calm. Even when a student is escalating, you are doing the beautiful work of co-regulating with them as your de escalating, and that’s great.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
But ultimately, we also want our students to be able to self regulate, we want them to be able to identify, I’m dysregulated right now, then to make the conscious choice, I want to do something about it, and then take those steps to get themselves regulated.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And in those situations, you know, there’s a lot of low key coping skill strategies that we can teach our students that they can do while they’re sitting at their desk, or while they’re sitting on the rug. Right. But I do think that, you know, calm corners, peace corners, whatever you want to call them are a very high yield strategy when it comes to unmet regulation needs for kids.

Sara
Yeah, I was gonna say it’s the I feel like, again, for the kids getting them to be self aware, but then also getting them to recognize I am dysregulated. And I want to do something to fix it. Like that’s, that’s hard. That’s hard for adults. Like, that’s hard for kids to do and figure out.

Sara
Yeah, and that’s where teachers can, you know, teachers know their students host as well as parents do, because so much time you’re spending with them. And that’s where using, you know, what I call kind of an emotion coaching script that maybe sounds a little bit more intense than what it really is.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
But it’s you know, when you see a student, and you notice that they’re dysregulated, saying, hey, it looks like you’re feeling really worried right now. Am I right about that? Are you feeling worried right now? Okay, yeah, I can see why you would feel worried because of XYZ. Do you want some help taking care of that feeling? Or can I give you some suggestions on what you could do to help yourself feel a little bit less worried right now?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Is is bridging that gap, right between you telling them exactly what to do and, you know, them being four years old, versus them being fully able to self regulate themselves. You’re providing a little bit of scaffolding.

Sara
Yeah, no, and I think that one, the sort of the naming of it looks like you’re worried right now can be about validating for students. It’s like, okay, somebody recognizes this, but also then providing them support to help them get regulated.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Totally, totally. And then the third unmet need that I think we see is around power control and competence, right? We all need to feel like we have choices and like we are in control of parts of our life. Children have less innate control, which is really hard.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And related to that we also need opportunities to feel successful. And so if a student feels incompetent, if they think they can’t do anything, right, then they’re going to have an unmet need in that realm. Or sometimes we might find a student has an unmet need in this area, if they have like a new big change in their life, if they’ve moved, if there’s a new adult in the home or an adult has left the home, then they’re going to have a greater need for power control and competence.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And that’s where you start to see more some of that oppositional defiant type of behavior, which I know personally is, is the biggest button pusher for me, and I think is a lot for teachers as well, that is maybe one of the harder ones to, for ourselves as the adults in the room to manage.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Yeah, and this one, I think, is is challenging, because I fully recognize the whole kids, students are our people, too, right? Like everybody wants to have that feeling of, you know, autonomy, power control competence, like you were saying, but I feel like that’s also sometimes so hard to give students in the school setting.

Sara
Because just like with the structure of school, so how can you know, if you have a student that you recognize, okay, they have a need for this, how do we provide that to them in a way that still works with the structure of the school setting?

Sara
Absolutely. So the the most low key is just providing choices. And I don’t mean an unlimited number of choices, I’m talking two to three options, right. And those options could be about know what writing utensil they use, it could be about if they’re sitting at their desk or on the floor, it could be the order that they complete questions in on like a worksheet or something that they’re doing.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Just them, knowing that you are giving them choices, limited choices that they have a chance to choose from, is a low level way that you can do that.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
I think, bigger way, and an intervention that I think is really powerful for a lot of students is them having a job, a classroom job, or a school job is really, really high impact intervention. On the one hand, you know, they’re in charge of something. And that feels really, really great. That is giving a sense of power and control right there. Right.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Also, when you have a job, usually a school job or a class job is more fun, and in some ways easier than schoolwork. And so what that does is that is setting the students up for success that’s giving a student experience being competent, and also really positive experience being responsible. And the idea is that you can build off of that. And once they’re having that experience, they’re they’re feeling like I’m in control of my life, I have power, I am able to do this, I’m responsible for this I was successful, that starts to translate over and to some of their academic work.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And then also is like another little bonus, sometimes our kids have more than one unmet need, right. And school jobs and class jobs often would involve interacting with another human. So sometimes they’re also getting this little bit of connection wrapped up in there as well.

Sara
So many of these things that you mentioned, I feel like these are such good ways to like prevent, right, like if we do these things, they’re going to prevent like the behavior from either escalating or it’s going to help things get better. Obviously giving students a choice with like the writing utensil or where to sit or you know, partner they’re gonna work with, that isn’t necessarily going to solve a behavior problem that is like escalated to the point of a meltdown, or the defiance, whatever that looks like.

Sara
Do you have any advice for teachers who are dealing with a student who is like beyond sort of the point of prevention, like we’re in the actual meltdown phase?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
I mean, I think using de-escalation strategies are going to be the best fit. Because if a student is at the point where there is yelling, where there is perhaps a lack of safety, things are being thrown at that point, we can say that student is dysregulated, that, you know, their lid has flipped, their prefrontal cortex is not operating fully. And at that point, your number one job is to get them regulated is to get their brain calmed down.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Because there’s nothing else that can happen. There’s no logic or reasoning or conversations that can happen before then. And so some of that validating of their emotions, stating and reflecting what you’re noticing is happening with them is really, really helpful. Providing them with a couple options for you know, what they can do is really, really great.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And I will also say, I think, especially when it comes to our older kids, if it’s not a safety issue in the moment, I think it’s time you know, I think we often want to say, Okay, you’re upset, go to a calm corner, set that timer for three minutes, but that’s not how feelings work. We can’t really set a timer on when someone is going to, you know, all of a sudden feel better.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And I think also, I know that I have been noticing more and more upper elementary students wanting privacy, and really shutting down more or escalating like externally more when they’re feeling like the eyes are on them. And so sort of a, you know, it’s more of an old school intervention. But using a buddy classroom, I think can be really, really extraordinary because I think in environment change is really fantastic and useful.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And yeah, sure that kids in the other class might look at them when they go in. But it’s different because it’s not their classmates. Yeah, it’s not their peers, I think, especially if you’re able to set things up in your classroom, so that everybody knows that this is something that might happen. You know, if you’re having a really hard time, you know, I might tell you to go to Ms. Jones’s classroom next door. And you know, what, if someone in her class is having a hard time, she might tell one of her students to come in our room, this is what this looks like.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Let’s practice it. Let’s practice what we’re going to do when somebody joins our room and says, material, let’s practice, I’m going to send you over to the next room to do that. So that that stigma isn’t there when it happens in the moment.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
It’s just like, this is how we this is how we handle the situation. Yeah, I love that. I love these ideas. Okay, I know you had mentioned that there are some big interventions that teachers can try, would you mind sharing those with my audience?

Sara
Sure. As much as I love school jobs and column corners, there’s two more interventions that I want to share that I consider to be really impactful. And by I consider, I mean, also research considers.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
One of them is called the 2 by 10. And it is gaining a little bit more traction, but I still find teachers and counselors that haven’t heard of it before. And it is for students who don’t yet have a strong positive relationships with one or more of their teachers. I think sometimes it can work, even if they do already have that relationship in place. But it is so powerful when it’s not there yet.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And all this intervention is, is you as the teacher spend two minutes every day for 10 consecutive days, talking to this target student about anything the student wants to talk about. That’s it.

Sara
Hearing you talk about that, I can just visualize how this would help with so many of the other things that you talked about developing those some of those social skills really like focusing on some of those unmet needs, like giving a students two minutes of your undivided attention to let them talk about whatever they want to talk about, I can see how that would just help so much strengthen the student teacher relationship.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Yeah, big time. It’s really, really powerful. I’ll say too, sometimes it’s hard, right? So if two minutes is a long time, you know, build up to that start with 30 seconds. I also think, you know, misery loves company. So maybe you and that student don’t have a common interest. Maybe you have a common disinterest. Maybe you hate the bugs that are always flying in the room, or the smell of something in the cafeteria, like, that’s absolutely fine to talk about too.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
What’s cool about this intervention is that it’s an evidence based intervention, there have been studies on this intervention. And one of them found that not only does it improve the behavior of the target student, right, it also improves the behavior of the class as a whole, which is really, really powerful.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And I think we have probably all seen where sometimes one or two tricky kids change the culture and climate of the whole classroom. And so an intervention that is not just going to support them, but is also going to reverse some of the negative that has occurred with everybody else is pretty great.

Sara
Yeah. So with this, specifically, just some logistical questions, if there’s like a best practice, is this like, does it need to be private time? Like, does it need to be at recess when nobody else was around? Or like before the day begins? Or like, Could this be the type of thing where the rest of the class is working on something and the teacher has this, you know, two minute conversation with a student? Like, what’s the set the stage for the best sort of best case scenario for this intervention?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
I think all of that is fine. I think it wouldn’t be something that would work, obviously, if it’s like, the whole class is on the rug for a morning meeting, or you just, you know, finished a read aloud, and then you’re trying to engage, right, but I don’t think it has to be this like, and now I will pull John out into the hallway, and we will have our two minutes. I mean, it can, it totally can.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
But it also could be, you know, you take the class out into the hallway, and it’s a bathroom break. And you know, maybe some of the other kids are reading, look, some kids are big readers, and they carry their books in the hallways with them. It makes me nervous in the bathroom, but that’s fine. Let them read, but maybe you’re having, you know, one minute of your conversation with your student, then you know.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Or maybe they’re the last one in line going into lunch and you guys are chatting while the other students are filtering in while you’re still you know, tactically responsible for your class. I think, really, any option is going to work. Because what’s most important is that it’s two minutes for 10 consecutive days. And logistically, that’s tricky. So logistically, whatever works for you in your classroom is what you’re going to do.

Sara
I love this intervention. I like I said, I can envision and thinking back to some students that I had, I’m like, I wish I would have tried something like that because I could see how it make a huge difference.

Sara
And I love that you’re sharing this intervention at this time of the year because there are still about two to three months left for many of our teachers and you know, if they have a child that is, you know, has had some behavior issues this last year, like I just keep on thinking in two weeks, it could be a completely different scenario, if they are able to invest two minutes a day with that child.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Absolutely. And things can change, and that maybe the year started off great, and everything was fine. And then especially with our older students, like I said, whether it’s a hormonal shift, or they’re really nervous about middle school next year, or there’s been a family change that they’ve become more aware of their behavior might shift. And so maybe you have a great relationship with them. And it’s kind of fallen by the wayside. This is a way to redevelop it.

Sara
Yeah, I love it. I love it. All right, what’s the other one?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Yeah, the other one is check in check out, which I usually call Cico, it is probably my favorite behavior intervention, because it is the most evidence based intervention, it is beautiful, it is wonderful. And it works for a wide range of issues.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
So check in check out at one point, it was called the behavior education program, I just mentioned that in case somebody is out of school that’s still using that name. And that’s where a student has a mentor. It can be you as the classroom teacher, I mean, in my experience, about half of the time, it’s the classroom teacher, the other half of the time, it’s another grown up in the building, sometimes it’s just another teacher and their grade level, sometimes it’s the PE teacher, it does not matter at all, as long as the teacher is the student respects them.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And each morning, they go to their mentor, they say hello, they have a three minute conversation. And they set a goal for the day for how many points they want to earn from their behavior, and what sort of reinforcement or reward they would like to get if they achieved those points.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Then during the day, they are doing their best to meet their expectations. And the teacher is giving them points for each block of the day, broken down however you want. At the end of the day, the kiddo goes back to their mentor, and they talk about their point sheet together, did you meet the goal? If not, why not? What are you going to do differently tomorrow? If you did a great job, look at your growth, Here’s your reward a reinforcer.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And so you can kind of hear in that three different things that are happening inside of this one intervention. One is there’s the positive reinforcement. So it’s helpful for kiddos who have competing motivations, there’s absolutely some attention and connection with the mentor.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
So it’s also helpful for kids who have an unmet need there. And there’s also some self monitoring, because they are being made aware throughout the day in, you know, hour, hour and a half long blocks, how they’re doing with their different behaviors, which can be helpful for kids who struggle with lagging skills.

Sara
Again, another one that I’m like, okay, I can see how this would be so helpful. And I love that you listed off all of those things that this check in check out intervention helps with.

Sara
But I think one of the things that just sort of like jumps out to me with both this one and the two by 10, is how both of these interventions prioritize that human to human connection. Right? You know, and I think sometimes it can be very tempting to disconnect when there’s behavior issues, right, like, go to the calm down corner, or take a break, or let’s just have a sticker chart, and you’re gonna, you know, you are getting your stickers or you aren’t, but I think like, you know, human connection is so important.

Sara
And I feel like if teachers can, and I know, it’s hard, finding the time, but finding more time to connect with the students that are having behavior issues, I’m starting to recognize from a lot of things you’ve shared can have such a huge impact,

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Big time, big time. And with this one in particular, I recently was reading an article about evidence based interventions for disruptive behavior in middle school. And look, I know that your teachers aren’t middle school teachers. But here’s the thing. I think that those big kids are acting more and more like, middle school students, right. Like, I think today’s fourth grader looks a lot like the seventh grader from a decade ago.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And in that study, this was the only intervention that was actually effective for disruptive behavior, and that a teacher could reasonably actually do right, you know, like, and still teach and still do the rest of their job, which I thought was really important.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Because I think teachers have so many tools in their toolbox when it comes to behaviors that are, you know, maybe more consistent with students who are whiny, or who struggle with ADHD, right? Like, you’ve got accommodations and modifications in your back pocket. But it’s the disruptive behaviors that I think are more challenging that we’re less equipped for. And it frankly, like cause us often as the adults the most distressed.

Sara
Yes, I love these suggestions. And to some cases, I’m like, Oh, I wish I could go back. Like anytime, anytime I hear or learn something new I’m like, Iwish I could go back and do it over again, because I think I would have been able to handle behavior issues in a much better way with a lot of the strategies that you’ve shared with us today.

Sara
One final question, because I know just again, hearing from teachers in my audience, do you have any encouragement or what encouragement do you have for feachers, who at this point in the year feel defeated or just exhausted when it comes to managing student behavior?

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
You know, I think Sara a few times we talked about the importance and value in validating our students feelings and experiences, and how helpful and supportive that can be. And I want to encourage teachers to validate their own thoughts and feelings and experiences.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Because this is really hard. And I don’t want you to get lost in the muck or get stuck in how frustrating it can be. But I know that your best is good enough. I know that the struggles that you’re facing and your students misbehaviors are to a large extent, normal, and just part of the process and are not a sign that you are doing something wrong.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And I think also, the the reminder that sometimes what we’re doing is planting seeds, and especially in the upper elementary, I think that the work that you’re doing, you are not always going to see that outcome that you would hope or expect for the work that you’re putting in, in the time you have with the students. But I think that that comes out later.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And I will just leave, I guess sort of leave with Maya Angelou quote that I am going to absolutely butcher but that we’re all familiar with that is they won’t remember the things you said or the things that you did, but they will remember how you made them feel.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
And even though, you know, you might not see the impact or the outcome of the work and the time that you are putting in your students will absolutely 1,000,000% remember how you made them feel in the classroom, that’s what they’ll hold on to. And after all of our conversation about the value of connection, that is the most important thing for you to leave them with.

Sara
I think that is perfect. And I know, so many teachers are going to feel validated just with what you just said, and that last little bit. So thank you so much for that encouragement. And thank you for all of the really practical strategies that you shared with us. Thank you for all of the knowledge that you were willing to share with my audience. Like I said, I know this episode is going to hit home with a lot of teachers. So I am so grateful that you are here.

Sara
For teachers in my audience who are maybe unfamiliar with you, because I know you typically work with school counselors. I always tell Sara that I want to be here when I grow up. And I wish she was like my classroom teacher like I just ou have so much knowledge and I have learned so much from you personally. And so I know that there are teachers in my audience who will probably want to follow and continue to learn from you. So where can people find you on the internet?

Sara
I am at theresponsivecounselor.com and I am @theresponsivecounselor on Instagram and Facebook.

Sara
We will be sure to link to both of those in our show notes. And again, Sara, thank you so much for coming on today. I feel like I learned a lot and I’m so excited to share this episode with my audience.

Sara Cottrill-Carlo
Thank you Sara and to all of you stellar teacher listeners.