How to Best Support Your Students With Dyslexia With Heather O’Donnell

Sara
Hey there and welcome back to another episode. I am so glad you are tuning in today specifically, because I have a sneaking suspicion that this is an episode that you’re going to want to come back to and listen to again and again. And that’s because it is jam packed with information all about dyslexia.

Sara
Now, more than likely, you already have a student in your classroom that has a dyslexia diagnosis. And if you don’t, it’s possible that you actually have a student who does have dyslexia but is currently flying under the radar. And if you’re anything like me, then you’re probably wondering, how can you best support these students? And you know, how can we make sure that they are experiencing success and not falling further and further behind?

Sara
So if you have ever wondered how to do the best job of supporting your students with dyslexia, then you are going to get a lot out of today’s episode. And that’s because today I have Heather O’Donnell, who has her master’s in education is Orton Gillingham trained and she has her own private dyslexia tutoring practice, that she has grown to a team of 14 tutors who provide online and in person, multi sensory reading and writing instruction to students in over 10 states.

Sara
So needless to say, she knows a lot about students with dyslexia and how teachers can best support them. Now, during our conversation, she provides some really great information that helped us understand what exactly dyslexia is. And she also clears up some common misconceptions that people have regarding dyslexia.

Sara
And of course, you know, I love to keep it practical and real. So she also shares some really great strategies and ideas for how classroom teachers can best support their students with dyslexia. I took a ton of notes from our conversation, and I bet you will as well. So let’s jump right in.

Heather
Hi, Heather, welcome to the show. I am so happy to have you on as a guest today.

Heather
Well, thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

Sara
So I know that the teachers in my audience are going to benefit from this conversation because you are a bit of a dyslexia expert. Teachers ask us all the time, both in our membership and on Instagram. You know, I’ve got students who are dyslexic. Is this going to work for them? How do I help them?

Sara
I know when I was in the classroom, I had students that had dyslexia, and sometimes I felt at a loss of like, is what I’m doing, actually helping them? Could I be doing something more? So I’m so glad that we get to have you on the show today to just really talk about how can we be intentional about supporting our students with dyslexia.

Heather
I’m really happy to be here. And I think it’s really a great question. Because statistically, there are kids in every single classroom with dyslexia. And we as teachers are passionate about what we do. And of course, we want to help them. And it’s important to talk about what we can do you know, what we can do, sort of this year right now and what we can do for the future.

Heather
Yeah, I love that. So before we get into, because I know you’ve got lots of great suggestions and strategies to share with teachers. But before we do that, can you just give us kind of an overall definition or explanation of what is dyslexia? I feel like sometimes it’s like it’s thrown out there. And, and we assume that everybody knows, but let’s just get on the same page. What exactly is dyslexia?

Heather
Sure, it’s a great question. So I went to two sources. I was like, let me just sort of compare because I think one of the challenges with dyslexia is that there are lots of sort of definitions out there, and there are lots of perceptions.

Heather
So I went to the Oxford Dictionary, I was like, that’s a good classic definition. And it describes Dyslexia as a condition of neuro developmental origin that mainly affects the ease with which a person reads writes or spells. So that’s a good basic working definition. However, you know, when we work in the dyslexia field, we want more targeted more information.

Heather
So I went to the International Dyslexia Association’s website and I looked at their definition, which is a little bit more detail. They defined dyslexia is a specific learning disability that is neurobiological in origin.

Heather
It is characterized by difficulties with accurate and fluent word recognition, poor spelling and decoding and it is characterized by a deficit in phonological component of language that is unexpected, based on cognitive abilities and classroom appropriate classroom instruction. And then related issues can come with reading comprehension, reduced reading experience that can impede growth of vocab and background now out.

Heather
So that’s a whole lot of info. What does that really mean? It basically means that dyslexia is a learning disorder that impacts the person’s ability to read, spell, and grow their vocab in a way that helps them access reading the way we would expect them to.

Heather
You know, I think the really important part is the unexpected with cognitive abilities and live classroom instruction, you have this really bright kid, and this kid can tell you these amazing stories, and they know all these things. But then it’s reading time, and they’re struggling.

Heather
And I think this is where teachers are like, What is going on? You know, here’s his learning profile. Here’s this really smart kid, but why aren’t they getting reading? Why is their spelling, such a struggle?

Heather
And I think that when I talk to parents who are worried about their child, that is what I hear again, and again, you know, my child can do all these things. But when it’s reading, they’re so low, they’re so delayed and it just doesn’t match.

Heather
Yeah, it’s that unexpected bit where it’s like, we expect them to do better because of their either listening comprehension or their knowledge or, you know, performance and other subjects. So it’s that unexpected, but I love that super in depth definition. And I think that it’s so helpful.

Sara
For teachers it is a lot of information though, but I feel like there is an I don’t know if it’s like misconceptions, or like a limited understanding, because I always feel like dyslexia is like classified as like, oh, it’s when the letters are floating on the page, or like you’re reading words backwards, but I feel like that’s not actually like a very good description or understanding.

Sara
So I love your that definition, not just your definition, but that definition that like No, it really is this unexpected, you know, struggle with word recognition, specifically. But are there other like misconceptions that you feel like either teachers or parents or just the general public has about dyslexia, that it’s important we sort of clear those up?

Heather
Oh, totally. I mean, I think the the phonological component of dyslexia is the part that people have the hardest time understanding, you know, the phonology is sounds. So really dyslexia when a kid has dyslexia, they’re having difficulty understanding and learning the sounds of the English language.

Heather
And that’s not you know, typically people think about reading, we didn’t think about words, we’re not really thinking about how words are broken into sounds. You know, you’ll often hear dyslexia is backwards letters, you know, kids see letters backwards, they write letters backwards, that totally can be a symptom. But it can be correlated, not necessarily cause aided.

Heather
You can have a kid dyslexia that does not have difficulty recognizing letters and does not reverse letters. And you can have kids that are still reversing letters in fifth grade, sixth grade way beyond typically up to a second grader. So it’s, you know, considered okay to still have rehearsals beyond that it can be indicative of an issue.

Heather
You know, another misconception is that you can’t diagnose dyslexia until third grade, second grade later in elementary school. And that is not true. There are symptoms that can be perceived and noted, even in preschool difficulty, rhyming, difficulty learning letters, and colors, difficulty recognizing their name, you can see that in three or four years old. And if you see those signs, learning to read is going to be so much harder first.

Heather
And then unfortunately, what happens is, when people think there’s a milestone, they wait for it, and then all this time goes by, and then all of a sudden, you have a third grader who was reading at a first grade or kindergarten level and school becomes really unfun place at that point.

Sara
Meanwhile, that could have been getting some early interventions that probably would have prevented some of those challenges.

Heather
Exactly. I think sometimes, because of that cognitive profile versus the reading performance, there can be a perception that the kid is just not trying hard enough that they’re not, you know, you’ll hear, they’re lazy, like they should be able to get this what’s happening here.

Heather
And I think that’s why, you know, really, you’ve got the super smart, you know, really verbal kid, but something is not clicking with the reading instruction, and their level is just so much lower. It’s really important for teachers to sort of have that in their mind. Because, you know, in actual fact, kids with dyslexia are working twice as hard, right? As kids for whom reading comes much more easily.

Sara
And I bet there are students who are very loving the whole sort of disconnect between the cognitive abilities and their reading that, you know, they’re probably really smart students who are compensating as best they can. And so, a teacher, you know, might see might not see the actual challenge.

Sara
You know, the fact that the student like you were saying they’re working twice as hard because they’ve learned to compensate in other capacities. So, and I think most teachers aren’t good about just like recognizing that, like, their students aren’t lazy.

Sara
But I think especially with those kids that do have dyslexia like recognizing that, even if it’s hard to detect, like that student is working so hard to try to pretend like they’re reading or look like they’re reading or to keep up with the rest of their classmates. Such an important thing to keep in mind.

Heather
No, absolutely. And I think I agree with you that you know, a teacher wouldn’t necessarily categorize that way. But a parent might come to you and no, man homework is just really miserable at our house. And you know, they’re not trying and what’s happening?

Heather
I’m sure students probably too are like, Oh, this is hard for me. I don’t want to do it. Like how, how often are we you know, willing to do the things that are hard for us. I can only imagine that a student with dyslexia just feels so defeated when they’re having to sit down and do homework that is just such challenging for them day after day.

Heather
No, absolutely. I mean, I had a client a few years ago who would sit and hold the books that she couldn’t read in class. And she was so anxious about it, that she actually started, you know, pull out her eyelashes, because she was so frustrated. And, you know, it was such a challenging experience.

Heather
But she was very quiet about it, you know, in the group of kids doing independent reading or whatever was going on, you know, so I think it’s really important teachers learned, you know, every year you have a new class, but you learn the norm in your class, you learn who’s, and you have to look for those kids that are flying under the radar.

Heather
Because whereas some kids may prefer any attention, even negative attention to hide their learning challenges, other kids will totally slip under the radar, right important just to make sure that we’re checking in with them.

Heather
Another misconception I hear this one all the time is that it’s just a visual issue, like you’ll hear the colored five coloring app means, you know, there may be a correlation for some students that those help they isolate a line of text, it helps the child focus, but it is not, you know, dyslexia is not a vision issue. If it was, it’d be so much easier.

Sara
Just get the glasses or colored glasses, we’d be good to go.

Heather
You know, another popular one is that dyslexia only exists in English. And that’s not true. Now what’s interesting about that is other languages are more decodable and more regular than English.

Heather
English is really a hodgepodge from all these different, you know, Latin lackey is more pronounced, but you can have dyslexia, you know, with Spanish speakers, or you know, French and other languages, it does actually exist. So it’s a, it’s a common phenomenon, it’s not necessarily targeted to one language, which totally makes sense.

Heather
There’s also a misconception that sometimes that there’s just hasn’t been enough reading at home or there hasn’t been enough reading, valued in general, you know, if a child has dyslexia, you can read to them forever, but it will not teach them to read, right.

Heather
And that is a piece that I think is hard for parents who really invest that time and doing everything that they can, and it’s just not clicking. And I think it’s important for teachers to just, you know, respect that every family is doing the very best that they can, and so many of them are, you know, reading to their kids, but it won’t teach.

Heather
That’s not enough. Exactly. I’m so glad you shared all of those, because I think that and all of those things is like, Yep, I used to think that or I remember hearing that in, you know, meetings with students where we’re trying to get diagnosed, you know, there’s just, again, so many misconceptions out there.

Sara
So I appreciate all those, but what are some things that teachers do need to pay attention to? Because you know, like you mentioned at the beginning of the episode, there is probably a dyslexic student in every classroom, I think, isn’t it? What one out of five students is? Yeah, the statistics.

Sara
So what are some things that teachers really need to be on the lookout for? Or pay attention to? If they think that they have a student that might have dyslexia? What are some sort of indicators that it is more than just, you know, having some minor struggles with reading?

Heather
Sure. So again, I think that profile of a bright verbal child who can tell you a story that goes on for three minutes and is organized and fantastic, but then it comes down to write and they give you two short sentences, or maybe three, and they’re very painstaking.

Heather
You know, that child who again, very verbal, lots of language, and then it’s reading time, and they’re struggling, and there’s just a significant difficulty that doesn’t match with their oral and expressive vocabulary.

Heather
I think the most important thing teachers can do is, there’s sort of two things. What can you do in your classroom to support this learner? And what can you do for this learner moving forward?

Heather
Because I think, for example, if you’re a kindergarten, first grade, or second grade teacher, I’m a huge believer in getting a school district evaluation. If you have questions about a student in your class, really, an evaluation provides much more information.

Heather
Now every school is different, some schools will welcome you approaching a parent and saying concerns about your child I’d love for other schools will not so you know, 100% that is something you have to sort of feel out and know the culture of your school.

Heather
When I approach a client’s parent because I want them to get a school district evaluation, I will say, you know, this will give us the information we need to better support your student learning. And usually parents are like, Okay, makes sense. We’ll do it. But then I’m coming from a private perspective, not the school perspective.

Heather
Usually schools have some sort of RTI MTSS in school support. So I think the first thing that every teacher who suspects dyslexia needs to do is collect examples, collect data, whatever your school’s evaluation or you know, your progress monitoring it.

Heather
You know, what is setting off that flag for you? Is it they’re having difficulty reading words? They’re having difficulty writing sentences? You know, collect all of that information over time ideally, so that you can discuss it with a parent at a conference if you feel comfortable.

Sara
Is there like an ideal length of time is this like two weeks a month, like six months a year? And I’m sure it’s different for every student. You know, I

Heather
You know, I think an experienced teacher might have a flag go up sooner than perhaps a younger teacher who is still learning. But I think as soon as you are starting to wonder, collecting that information so that you can take it, initiate the process within your school, whatever it is.

Heather
They usually schools have a team that will review and, you know, perhaps the student would benefit from smaller group instruction. You know, there are supports in place within schools, because there are students out there struggling, particularly after COVID In the past few years.

Sara
Yeah, I remember teaching in schools that did not have a good, like, there was not structured progress monitoring, we did not have a good like RTI process. But I know I had students that, you know, I needed to be collecting the data. But I was a young teacher, I was like, I don’t know, what data do I collect even?

Sara
And I know, that’s probably a big question. But any suggestions for like what are some things that teachers could start to do to try to collect the data on those students?

Heather
That’s a hard question. I mean, I think that your school is using structured literacy instruction, it becomes much easier because you know, your scope and sequence you can take the samples as you move through it.

Heather
You know, typically, if your school is using more of a balanced literacy approach to instruction, often there’s, you know, the the FMP, or there’s certain benchmarks, but they might not provide the information that you need. Right. And I think that is absolutely a real struggle for a lot of teachers out there that are starting to want more concrete data that shows what their students are working with.

Heather
You know, I think that is a challenge. I think if that is sort of where you’re feeling, you have to, you know, kind of what to say you have to go find was different. And I know that I think the more you can make your data concrete, like when the child read 15 CVC words? Can they read 15 words, containing blends? Can they read 15 words with three letter blends?

Heather
You know, if you there are lots of scopes and sequences out there, you know, just if you can find one that works, and just sort of see where the child struggles are falling, that at least gives you something to be able to initiate a process of, you know, here we have a third grader who can read CVC words and words with blends, but nothing beyond that.

Heather
Yeah. And I think I mean, I think that is helpful, because again, it’s like I remember especially being an upper elementary teacher if phonics is not like, when I taught fourth grade, we weren’t doing anything with phonics. But I know I had students that were struggling with those blends and those, you know, short vowels, and you know, those CVC words.

Sara
But it was like, How do I even find the resources, but I think like you said, it’s like, okay, find a phonics scope and sequence, work your way through it with a student. So that way, at least even if it’s not what you’re teaching whole group, you can say, like, meeting with a student, you know, one on one, like this is the data that I have, that suggests that they are struggling with the word recognition side of it. So that’s a really good suggestion.

Heather
I mean, it’s, you know, even if you can’t, or you don’t feel qualified to teach them those skills, at least collecting that data shows, you know, here is a child that’s being handed, you know, this kind of text and is expected to read it, but this is what they’re actually reading.

Heather
That kind of thing can be helpful, even if you’re not, if you don’t have the resources to pull a small group and start teaching the scope and sequence. And, you know, there has been more awareness about you know, it’s commonly the science of reading structured literacy, Google search will turn up some information in a way that they wouldn’t have a few years ago, which is great.

Sara
Well, and I think too, I love what you just said, how it’s like, even if a teacher does not feel equipped to teach it, they can still collect the data to help with like the diagnosis. So like, I know, most of my teachers are upper elementary, and so often, they’re like, I don’t know how to teach phonics, like I’ve never been trained on that.

Sara
But it’s like, okay, even even if you have it, you still can collect the data to help the student eventually get the interventions that they need. So I love that sort of like differentiation.

Sara
So many good things right there that you are sharing, can we talk about some practical things that teachers can do? So if they have a student that does have a diagnosis, or is, you know, going through the process of getting a diagnosis? What are some things that they could do in a general education classroom to really support that student?

Heather
So I think the biggest thing to do is, again, you need to know where you’re going to treat a student that’s reading at a first grade level differently than you’re going to treat a student being at a second or third grade level if you’re a fourth grade teacher. But how can you differentiate the assignments that you’re giving?

Heather
For example, you’d have kids with dyslexia often have difficulty copying off a board or copying far away. So could you give an assignment with a word bank at the top so that the key vocabulary words are there, they don’t have to spell them. They don’t have to look across the room to copy them. But they can still write sentences about them.

Heather
Or if that isn’t even possible for the student. They could use those words to fill in in a closed type activity, things like that.

Heather
I think, you know, the more clarity around instructions, the more time you can give students whether a whole group assignment starts whole group and then it’s finished in small groups so that kids who need extra time can get it without it being an obvious you know, we don’t want to keep the whole class waiting for two kids who need more time, but being sensitive to more time, more support more modificaition and differentiation.

Heather
Seeing if your school would support some kind of phonics instruction, professional development, you know, that is really, really important at the upper grades, morphology so important, you know, bringing in teaching kids. I mean, I didn’t learn to read morphology or any of this, but I think studying where words come from is so fascinating. I don’t know if my clients always think it’s just fascinating, exciting.

Heather
I’m with you, I love studying words, I think it’s, I find it to be so interesting just to learn the history of how the words came to be.

Heather
Yeah, it’s amazing. I mean, you know, the Latin roots and, and again, all that helps kids as they get older. I think the statistic is something like 60% of the words kids encounter middle school are Latin and Greek origin. So like, if you know that Bio means life and you know, ology means the study of suddenly biology makes a lot more sense.

Heather
That’s amazing because it’s like, as kids start to become aware of those word parts, and especially the Greek and Latin roots, it’s like, they just start to it’s the, you know, the unlocking of the code, it’s like, they start to be like, Okay, I see that word, I understand that all of these other connected words, and it helps them both with the reading the decoding side of it, but also like the meaning and the understanding.

Heather
And also the spelling, I mean, the thing and I tell clients this all the time, Latin is very decodable. Did you know Yep, not wrapped means break, that’s always my first one to teach, no disrupting, disrupted, disruptive, suddenly, you’re teaching kids how to put together the words.

Heather
And that’s going to benefit a kid with dyslexia, because they’re like three little pieces is much easier to put together and spell that one big word. Right? It’s going to help kids who don’t necessarily have dyslexia, but they’re going to gain new understanding of those words, and of how words are put together, which will help them in their writing.

Heather
You know, there’s a saying structured literacy benefits, everybody, but it’s necessary for them. And I really think that is true. You know, my own children did not necessarily have that sort of preparation. And, you know, I’ll launch into it with them. And they’re less impressed.

Heather
But you know, like, learning how the language goes together is helpful for so many reasons. And it’s really essential for kids with dyslexia, but it’ll help us the kids in the class as well. And it’s kind of fun.

Sara
Yeah. Any other suggestions for things that teachers need to keep in mind when working with students with dyslexia?

Heather
I mean, I think, you know, I think so many of them makes sense. And I think so many of them, teachers do anyway, you know, what can you pre teach? What can you get dyslexia heads up on? Or struggling? I mean, you know, there’s so much overlap.

Heather
You know, pulling small groups to really focused on something differentiating is so key. Sometimes students with dyslexia and other you know, special needs might benefit from an individual schedule, you know, we’re doing this thing we’re doing this, you know, folders. I used to be big fan of the, the green side of the folders, the work to do the red side is done.

Heather
All those little tricks that I think so many teachers are already doing instinct, are beneficial. But the biggest thing I would say is, if you know, a student is having difficulty reading or spelling words, what can you differentiate about the assignments to help them with that, while still keeping it grade level as much as possible?

Heather
Because we don’t want to simplify, we just want to support them, so that they can do a similar version of the work and still encounter that grade level vocabulary. Because I think that’s one of the biggest challenges with kids with dyslexia. Reading is so I mean, I know from the research, reading is so hard, you don’t want to do it, they’re reluctant to read.

Heather
And then kids who take the reading are reading more and more and more and building the vocabulary. And then kids with dyslexia, it’s so much harder, and the vocab growth starts to drop. So we don’t write audio books, audio text, yeah. How much can you present content through audio or visual?

Heather
You know, encouraging, you know, if you’re, if your class is reading a book together, is there an online and audio version you can offer to the struggling reader so that they can keep up and engage in the conversation without necessarily needing that decoding placed on them.

Sara
I love how you said we want to support students with the assignments not simplified necessarily. And I think that’s, again, just such a good reminder that, as teachers, sometimes we, you know, we always come from a place of like, I want to help.

Sara
And sometimes we think the best way to help us to simplify for that student, but it’s like, no, we still want that student to have the experience of the grade level content. So we need to provide support, not necessarily a simplification.

Heather
It’s hard, it takes a little it is hard. And you know, teachers already work really hard. You know, the there’s no easy way about it. And I think teachers also have to give themselves a little bit of grace of I’m one teacher.

Heather
Right, right, I can only do so much.

Heather
But yeah, I think it’s really important. You know, I often work with kids who are in third or fourth grade with delayed reading skills, and it is a challenge because that’s where the curriculum really starts to take off and it becomes more content based and when you have these limited literacy skills, what can you do?

Heather
But the more you know close activities with a word bank or writing tab with a word bank sentence stems, you know, whatever you’re learning about, and I know Dinah’s this morning. We did a sense of STEM about dinosaurs. You know, the Velociraptor is important because and she was right, fill that in, but she didn’t have to write the whole sentence,

Heather
You know anything. Yeah, that can alleviate the literacy load on a student while still getting to the content and getting the goal of the assignment is so helpful for kids with dyslexia and other kids who are struggling.

Heather
Absolutely. And I know you’ve said it a couple times, but it really does. It’s like all of these strategies that you’re sharing that help our dyslexic students, they really help all students. You know, it’s like sentence stems help help all students. So it’s like, let’s just do what we know is going to really help our dyslexic students and everybody ultimately will benefit from it.

Heather
And the sentence stems.

Sara
Yes, I love them, too. Okay, so what about collaboration with parents? Because I know that parents obviously play a really important role and like, helping their children be successful with literacy as well. And so what are some ways that teachers can collaborate with parents when it comes to supporting students with dyslexia?

Heather
I think the best thing teachers can do is to be open to learning about, you know, open to a parent’s concerns, because parents know, you know, I talked to parents all the time, in my practice, and they know, you know.

Heather
Yesterday, I had a console for the new parent. And she’s like, again, there’s that narrative, right? We’re, you know, we value books, we’re doing all this reading. And then I asked his teachers, you know, Is he is he doing what he’s supposed to is a little bit lazy, and things like that.

Heather
You know, parents, the flag goes up for parents. And I think it’s really important for us as teachers to think about what we can do, because ultimately, parents are going to be with this kid, obviously, with school, you know, most classic school environments, you’re going to have the student for a year, and then they’re going to move on. You know, what can we do right now? And what can we do to set the student up for the future?

Heather
And that’s why the school district evaluation is so helpful, because it provides more information for not only the current classroom teacher, but future teachers. Ideally, you know, a parent requesting that is the best way to go again, different schools have different culture is not going to, you know, I wouldn’t want anyone to do anything they feel uncomfortable with.

Heather
But I think recognizing a parent’s concerns is really important. There’s some great resources out there in terms of books, like Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz. You know, there’s some great articles. And if you truly have concerns about a student, if you can find a way to hear what the parents perspective is, and possibly indicate, you know, again, based on data.

Heather
Well, you know, the bulk of the class is here, and I’m your child is only here, and I’m a little concerned about that. So I’m going to, you know, refer them to our school team and right, they’re going to look at and see if we can provide more small group support or you know, whatever it is, and then hopefully, that will open the door in a way again, it’s about understanding the child’s learning needs and supporting them better. Most parents are not going to be upset about that.

Sara
I think if we can always bring it back to like, we have the child’s best interests in mind. And we want to make sure we’re providing them with you know what they need to be successful. Yeah, like you said, it’s like parents, parents and teachers are on the same page when it comes to that, right. Like, everybody wants the children to be successful.

Heather
Exactly. And classroom teachers have the advantage of seeing all the students you know, they know the norm, right, and obviously the norm to shift class to class but you know, most kids can write three paragraphs and a student has a hard time writing two sentences, and can only read CVC words, right?

Heather
So it’s really becoming a situation that needs school support and possibly evaluation for whether they meet the needs for an IEP and a formal and the path to a diagnosis. Plenty of schools will not diagnose but the first step towards learning more about their their needs.

Sara
Well Heather this has been so informative, and I just know that the teachers in my audience are going to benefit from hearing your expertise with this. So thank you for coming on and being willing to share with us.

Sara
If my audience wants to connect with you wants to you know, follow you along. I know you share some great information on Instagram. How can they connect with you after this episode?

Heather
Oh well, we are on all social media, I think at this point under New Paltz Multisensory Tutoring, and we have a website at www.newpaltzmultisensory.com. And New Paltz, it’s a town name a little bit of a weird name. So newpaltzmultisensory.com.

Sara
And we’ll be sure to link to both of those in the show notes as well. So again, Heather, thank you so much for coming on today. This was such a great conversation, and I cannot wait to share with my audience.

Heather
Oh, well that you so much for inviting me. It was wonderful to talk about one of my favorite subjects.